H. Richard Milner
episode 25 to the classroom podcast
November 13, 2023
My guest today is Dr. H. Richard Milner, author of the recent Reading Research Quarterly article titled “Disrupting Racism and Whiteness in Researching a Science of Reading” and the new book The Race Card. We talk about the importance of drawing from a wide range of types of research in designing our literacy classrooms, the multiple literacies we should be developing in young people, and what effective leadership looks like in this time.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Welcome Dr. Milner.
H. Richard Milner:
Thank you.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Let's talk about research and let's crack open what research means for teachers that are wanting to be research informed and taking a look at the research, why is it important that we think about both quantitative and qualitative research to inform our practices in the classroom?
H. Richard Milner:
I think what is essential is that educators are reading and are staying up to date with what research is telling us about literacies, what research is telling us about curriculum instruction, assessment practices and so forth. I think it's really important to sort of trouble the way in which research is being advanced related to the science of reading. And of course, those stories are essential to what we know and how we come to know what we know. I think another point here to remember is that research becomes research when we systematically study a phenomenon. So I definitely without a doubt believe that it's a mistake for us to ignore all the important and really deep and rich research about reading, about reading development, about motivation, about student interests, that research is so essential. And I think it's also a mistake for us not to look at the evidence, the quantitative evidence as well. I think sometimes what happens is we become so focused in on our own paradigmatic way of knowing and our own values and beliefs, and we miss really important insights about learning about students, about families, about communities. I know for instance, with that, we're still having the phonics whole language debates. It's just telling of the times I think. And it's also telling of how little, I think we listen to each other in times of need. I've talked to so many families who, families of color, families, families who live below the poverty line, families whose children, their first language is something other than English who are almost, I don't want to say forced into, but their children are in particular kinds of schools where it is drill. And I don't want to say it's just this whole sort of orientation around phonics instruction without some of these other ways of approaching research. I think missing those voices as well, I think leads us down the wrong path as well. So I think there's, we have to trouble what's happening in this moment in ways that I think those of us in the ivory tower, for instance, and I'm talking about myself here, can sometimes miss because we know so much about getting students not only hooked to pass a test so that they become lifelong learners and lifelong book lovers and readers in ways that are potentially sustainable.
Jennifer Serravallo:
I'm so glad you're bringing that up because I feel like it's really common. I see these memes floating around social media a lot that have some version of the sentiment, "I don't care if they like or love to read, I only care if they can." Have you seen, you're nodding your head, you've seen those too. And there's this whole science also of motivation and why kids read and what brings them to reading and what's going to make them continue to read. I know you've written about that as well. So I wonder if you could talk back to that idea of research-based practices that educators can employ that will help readers to not only be able to read, of course we all care about that, but also that they want to read.
H. Richard Milner:
No, absolutely. I think it's a mistake to not build and model, I think, the kinds of liter literacy practices and literacies that we hope our young people will carry with them throughout. I mean, this notion that it's one or the other I think is really dangerous. I have twin daughters, who are almost 13, they tell me they can give me the exact mathematical number for how many days it'll be before they turn 13. But each summer we read books together. And what I yearn for are the days when I walk in and they are engaged in a book without my probing or they are on Amazon and a book shows up at my door. So those are the things that I think are really important. And they start, not because I'm doing phonics instruction with them necessarily, but it is really because we have tried to immerse them in a community of books. We've tried to model what we do and how we find joy in reading. Gholdy Muhammad is so brilliant in pushing us to think about, think about joy and so much joy, right? It's really important.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think another thing that I've read that you have called out as a mistake is framing a movement around a deficit lens. Thinking about what's missing or what's wrong with students, whether we're talking about kids with IEPs, students from minoritized communities. Can you talk a little bit about that and why you see this as such a problem?
H. Richard Milner:
Yeah, absolutely. I think as educators, what we have often done is, and probably with great intention is we spend a lot of time figuring out what young people don't know and what they can't do. And we use that as a way of designing lessons, engaging with families and communities. But what I think we should be doing, and I talk about this explicitly, is I think we should be really focusing in on what young people do know and are able to do and using that as a foundation from which to build. So in my work, I talk explicitly about five areas that allow us to think about assets. One is a curriculum imperative. That is what we teach allows us to hone in/zone in to what it is students already know, care about or interested in. And then amplifying it, pushing it to the next level. Not saying, you know, you have a hole here, but pivoting and making instructional practices, making curriculum practices align with what they know and what they're able to be exposed to. There's a second area related to instruction, so an educator has to not only think about what they're teaching, but they have to think about how they are conveying it from an asset perspective. And then third, really focusing in on the sociology, the social interactions, which is often talked about as relationships. So when I taught high school English, I really had to reflect and build on who the student was, but what the student actually brought to the space. The many assets, rather than focusing in on the student has come in and joked the entire class period. So turning that what could be perceived as a deficit or a negative into a positive saying, wow, you're our comic relief today, we're going to, we need that laughter. So using that as an opportunity and that relationally allowed us to continue the class and not push that student out. And then third of course, assessment, we've talked about assessment and then fifth of course is engaging families and communities. And so just as we think about young people in schools bringing assets, families and communities as well are inundated with so many assets, so many strengths. And recognizing those I think is really important as well. Luis Moll and his work related to of course, Funds of Knowledge gives us a great entree into the many skill sets that families and communities actually possess, have, are developing, in ways that we in education, in schools, should be building on those.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Thank you. Yeah. I'm going to shift gears now and talk a little bit about, I think this is a good segue into your brand new book. It's called The Race Card, and I'll link to it in the show notes for anyone interested in checking it out. The story you start off with in the beginning where you're invited to speak to a district interested in supporting students who are underperforming. I think there's lots of districts, probably teachers out there listening, you know, have an expert come in, tell us what do we need to do? What should we be focusing on? And you talk about how you got the sense that they were looking for a very kind of clear, quick fix. Oh, just do this one thing or swap out the curriculum or do this different teaching practice and we'll be good. And you share that after your comprehensive presentation filled with what you called "opportunity imperatives" that detailed the many systemic institutional challenges that need addressing that they kind of felt frustrated or, "Hey, that's not what we wanted to hear. That's what we were looking for." I feel as though today there are some loud voices who are arguing for simplifying rather than complexifying our approaches to supporting literacy instruction. They're looking for one kind of, I mean, we're seeing it right now in New York City public schools. They're like, okay, we're just going to swap out the curriculum. All all's good, just change that curriculum for this curriculum and we're going to suddenly miraculously now have a hundred percent of kids reading on grade level. How do you respond? Can you share a little bit about how you respond to that urge to simplify?
H. Richard Milner:
Absolutely. Right. This is complex, dynamic, ongoing work, and I think educators, we must help those who are attempting to simplify, understand the multi-layered dimensions of this work. And in the way we come together to disseminate what we know and how we do the work we do, I think is a charge that in a podcasts like this, so who listens and how do we get people to listen who really don't understand or don't get it, or people who don't even really care to. I think those are the kinds of questions that we're constantly going to be faced. And unfortunately, I suspect that it's only going to intensify the ideas around streamlining, curriculum reduction. We're in a moment where I suspect if I eyes have not seen where I think we might be headed, so we've got to get ready. I also think that sometimes what happens is educators will, even though they understand that so many of the challenges we face are systemic and institutional and they're historical and they are deeply rooted and ingrained in the very fabric of the country, but also in the very fabric of education, they sometimes are, they feel overwhelmed and they feel as if there's very little they can do. And I think in that sense, we do have to remind educators, and we do have to remind the public, that individuals make systems. So these systems and these structures are a function of individuals. They're a function of collectives, of individuals. And so I don't want your listeners to leave this conversation thinking, oh wow, this is just so arduous and there's no way for me to be able to make a difference because I do.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Yeah, that's so important. It's like throw up your hand. If it's the system, there's nothing I can do, right? It's individuals that make up a system.
H. Richard Milner:
And so how do we use our individual power? How do we use our individual privileges? How do we use our individual fortitude and in a way to be collective forces to impact change? And I think the modeling of what we do in our work is so important because young people are watching. And so our best data point, going back to the question, to the conversation we were having earlier, Jennifer, about research, our best data point, our most reliable data point are young people. Younger people realize the humanity and the need to embrace and to co-construct the a kind of world where each individual in each community and all of us can thrive and survive and have joy and contribute. So my best hope is with young people, but I also know that there are so many miraculous and hardworking and dedicated educators who work with those brilliant young folks every single day to help them to pose the questions that need to be posed, to co-create structures that need to be developed so that young people can get their voices out and can build social action. So I think that's what we must do in ways and when educators, those outside of education, the critics who really don't get it, who really see education as one dimensional and is not complex, I think it's our responsibility as educators to help those folks understand that building social action is a literacy endeavor. Building coalitions around social change and humanity is a social justice is a literacy imperative, right? And so making those connections in ways so that it's not seen as, oh, educators are English teachers, literacy teachers, are not teaching, right? Absolutely, we are. Right. But it is and it is connected to a project.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Purpose.
H. Richard Milner:
Yeah, yeah, an agenda. So
Jennifer Serravallo:
Talk about motivation, right? Oh, good.
H. Richard Milner:
Absolutely.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Yeah. I mean, talking about this curriculum swapping, we're in a moment now where people are looking at new materials to give to teachers, which could be seen as a way to really critically shake up the system and the kinds of things that kids are learning and the kinds of pursuits that they're engaged with. And yet some of the curriculum that I see on short lists has been evaluated by reputable sources like NYU's Metropolitan Center for Research on Equity and the Transformation of Schools. And I read their recent report looking at some of the commonly used programs that are on shortlists in New York and elsewhere. And they found, and I'm going to quote from the paper, that they "have deficits that are mostly not being raised in the public, a current public debate about curriculum, the texts, language tone and guidance, communicate harmful messages to students of all backgrounds, especially Black, indigenous students of color, LGBTQIA+ students and students with disabilities." So that does not make me feel super hopeful if we're trying to maybe improve the way that phonics instruction is being taught by choosing a new curriculum where maybe the phonics is more robust, but then these experts in looking at equitable materials are saying, hold up, watch out for the text, the tone. It just makes me feel really frustrated. And I'm just wondering, what are educators to do? What's your advice? What would you do if you were consulting with a school district that was about to be adopting one of these new programs that you knew had some of these challenges or concerns?
H. Richard Milner:
Yeah, I mean, we're finding something very similar in the work we're doing here at the Initiative for Race Research and Justice at Vanderbilt. I think that the very first thing that we must do is we have to have leaders, and we must have educators in the schools who are bringing these issues to the fore, right? So we've mentioned a few times about what happens on social media or what we're seeing maybe in a snapshot on a local news outlet, let's say for instance, and I don't know what the news outlets in different places locally, you know, don't always get what we might get it from a national or even an international syndicated kind of program. So I think this knowledge dissemination is going to be key in this moment. So how do we come together in a way to share what it is we know these harmful curriculum guides, these harmful mandates. How do we find a way to share what we know in a way that is not simplistic but organized? And then how do we also share with families and communities just as families and communities have come together, for this backlash against diversity, equity, and inclusion? How do we come together in a way across these different sectors to share what we know and develop a comprehensive assertive plan to move forward? And my point here is not that we are reactive as much as we are tied to the offensive agenda to continue to press forward for what we know to be just, humane, and the right thing to do. And so there are elements of what's happening that we should absolutely take into consideration on this offensive when we say, and when I say offensive offense, when I say when we're moving forward with an agenda that is firmly committed to justice, but I don't think that our strategy should be in response to all of the nonsense that is moving forward. Because if we do, we'll get distracted by an agenda that they're setting. So I really do believe that we have enough science, we have solid evidence. We saw huge progress after the killing of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and others in 2020, with the killing of trans people, with the push out of Muslim students. All of these are assertive, deliberate attacks at progress that we were making, and we were making huge progress. Let me be clear here. I know the critics would say we have not come far, but I saw major shifts, albeit in short, shortly lived, but we saw huge shifts and what could have been a huge turn for a democratized way of living and being, right? And so this is an attempt, to really divert and disrupt justice and it's injustice for all, right? And so in that way, I would really say that we have to be data driven. We have to make sure that we are not polarizing to the way, and I talked about this in my presidential session at AERA. I think we go nowhere fast if our goal is to try to prove one side or the other without looking very solidly at the evidence, and we can go back to the science of reading as a case in point, that is, there are elements of what we know from the science of reading that we should be drawing from making sure teachers are able to do. One of my daughters has dyslexia, and I will tell you for sure that she needed to learn and she took to learn phonics. We still are working with her in that area. But that's not all. That's not it, right? But when we argue one side of a position without taking into consideration what we know from evidence and people's lived experiences, I think we missed a bar. And we're going to find ourselves in a holding pattern that doesn't allow us to reach a democracy, to reach a democracy that we should be constantly pursuing because it's the right thing to do.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Absolutely. And this is a moment I think that calls for leadership, not just people that are technically the appointed leaders of a district or the leader of a school, but I think every teacher can be and should be, and is a leader. And one of the things that you address in your new book is this concept of frontline leadership. Can you just talk a little bit about frontline leadership and what are some of the tenets that all leaders in schools, teachers, principals, superintendents, all of us can be keeping in mind as we lead in this moment?
H. Richard Milner:
Yeah, thank you, Jennifer. Yeah. So my work, I've spent my career really focused in on studying teachers, studying instructional practices, working with young people, learning from community and families throughout my career. And I can tell you for sure that when I wrote, Start Where You are, but Don't Stay There, which really highlights the work of successful teachers of young people in communities where others might not think they could be successful. So teachers are, as the young people would say, killing it. They're going above and beyond
Jennifer Serravallo:
Every day
H. Richard Milner:
every single day to meet the needs of young people. On weekends they're going over, they're spending their own money to supplement curriculum materials. They are giving students money to help them with graduation materials. They are, I mean, you name it, they're doing it. And so I think we need more. And what Start Where You Are does is it documents in a systematic way what educators are doing to move that work forward. And so what I really wanted to do in The Race Card was to really shed light on the 24 years, 25 years of work I've done learning from real teachers, learning from students, learning from community members, studying and getting my head around policies to shed light on what I think has to be done and needs to be done in schools, districts, states, across the US. And so I think educators, practicing teachers are frontline leaders. So when I say frontline, I mean people who are front and center doing the work of equity, doing the work of teaching, leading, organizing for truth in this country. And so you ask about the tenets, there are sort of eight tenets that I attempt to unpack in the book, and I try to give specific examples throughout so that it's not some sort of top level way of thinking. I'll focus on three tenets here just for the sake of time. One is, I don't know if I can say it any other way, but I talk about the necessity for research. And so research in this moment is going to be so critical, but not only research, but evidence from young people, but also the dissemination of what we know because so many people are making false claims or flat out lying about what's happening in schools and classrooms. And we've got to be data driven to push back and to demonstrate what we know to be true. So one big tenet is around building a community of research and research probing. And I talk about that explicitly, the kind of probing that should happen and how it can happen in a way that is additive and that's not seen as something extra to do, but is infused in the very fabric of what the school is, what the school does. The second tenet was that I would stress is around how we talk about what's happening. And so we know these are deeply systemic institutional issues that we're facing, but we've got to communicate those in a way to the broader public that motivates and that does not turn people away to believe that the problems are so huge that they can't get involved. We need every person listening to you to join together in the fight for truth. And then the last point I would stress is around centering and I, and this is the last tenet I stress in the book, but it is so central, is learning from and infusing the knowledge, the questions, the love, the insights of young people, young folks are out of the learning from young people is what we must do as we're making decisions about education moving forward.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Absolutely. I'm so grateful for this book, for your voice, for your work, and thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you.
H. Richard Milner:
Thank you for having me, and I am looking forward to listening to the podcast and I'm hoping that this work makes a difference. I really do. We need it. We really do. We do. Thank you for all you do.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Thank you.
Jennifer Serravallo:
I now welcome my colleagues Jerry and Aeriale for a conversation about that interview. Jerry, Aeriale, what did you think?
Aeriale Johnson:
Well, I guess I can go ahead and get us started. I think one of the things that's really standing out to me is this idea of teachers, educators, needing to understand the historical context of everything that you had a conversation about with Dr. Milner. Because if we don't understand the historical context, then we continue to repeat patterns. And so I'm in Alaska now and we just passed a Reads Act here in this state, and I see patterns that have continually repeated themselves all over our nation, beginning where I started my career in Florida in 1998. We are doing the exact same things like retaining third graders for not making alleged adequate progress in reading. It hasn't worked in Florida since my current teaching career started 26 or 25 years ago, and now we're doing it here in Alaska.
Jerry Maraia:
One of the things that really jumped out for me was Dr. Milner's call to action around us all being critical consumers of research. When I think about, for example, the science of reading, it's important for us as teachers, as leaders to pause and consider who built and disseminated this scientific evidence. And more importantly, I think what Dr. Milner does, and he asks us all to consider is how might this evidence be strengthened by more racially diverse researchers? And not only in addition to the research and the science of reading, but also when we're looking at new curricula, we need to be doing the same kinds of work. We need to ask ourselves the same question. Who wrote it? Do I see my students in it? Does it reflect the population in which I serve the students in my community? And it's interesting, it gets me also thinking a lot about how not only do we need to be doing this work as leaders, as teachers, as educators in the field, but also as teachers of reading and writing to get our kids be thinking about being critical consumers of research. I think about the strategy, "research and recognize the author's authority and bias." The strategy really guides students to learn about the author's background, their experience on a topic, but it also, it doesn't stop there. It pushes students to consider the information that is being included and being excluded. I think that's so critical in this time right now, that we pause and do this work that we ask our kids to do, but as the adults and we as the folks responsible for implementation of meaningful, effective, responsive curriculum to be doing the same kinds of things.
Aeriale Johnson:
And I think doing this work with children is one of the ways that we can put a bandaid on the curriculum that is coming our way, that in Alaska, what they did is offer a large sum of money to school districts who purchased curriculum off of approved list.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Interesting.
Aeriale Johnson:
My school district has done that. We purchased off of their approved list and there are issues. We look at NYU's research with regard to evaluating curriculum and it doesn't pass muster. However, one of the things I'm doing is I think about working with teachers and trying to help them be critical consumers is how their children can be critical consumers of this. I mean, first of all, our district is just making a decision just to delete some units of study completely because we are working in an indigenous context and some things just are not acceptable. But with those units that we have kept asking kids, who's present, who's missing? How are people being represented? Is that truthful or not truthful? Do you have questions about this? Does this make you wonder about things? And if kids can answer those types of questions and do those types of things, then we can build text sets around these texts that are included in the curriculum to make it more whole, make it more representative of both people, human beings and humanity, but also of the truth.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Ariel, I think that's such a helpful concrete example of leadership. You're now in a leadership role at the district level, right? Curriculum and instruction at the district level. So those sorts of, that example of leadership to ask those critical conversations and involve the teachers in making additions, deletions, revisions as necessary, thinking specifically about the population of students you serve.
Jerry Maraia:
Another thing Dr. Milner mentioned that really resonated with me is this notion of centering, learning from, and infusing the knowledge and expertise of young people as we're making decisions about education. And it got me thinking a lot about, as a practitioner in the field, as a leader, as a teacher, as a consultant working with educators, how do we do this and how do we ensure that that's central in the work that we do every day? Jen, you talk a lot about action research and the sort of thinking about how action research is an important aspect in a practitioner's life so that we're responsive to the needs of all in the community. And I'm thinking about in an age of top down reforms and innovations. Now more than ever, we need to offset this by the expert knowledge that exist in communities.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Absolutely.
Jerry Maraia:
And I think this insider research or action research is a really good call to action, if you will. I think part of the challenge becomes is giving folks time to actually lean in and engage with it. How do we ensure that school leaders, both from the district and the building level and teachers, that there's time built in to do this inquiry work, to have inquiry as sort of a stance, if you will, and we think critically about problems of practice that we can help identify and come to some solutions around.
Aeriale Johnson:
And having those problems of practice are not deficits in children. That was one of the beautiful things that I thought that he articulated so well. We build our practices and all of the things that we do a lot of times in PLCs and those sorts of things around what we perceive to be as deficits of children, rather than focusing on their strengths and having their strengths be a springboard. And not just their strengths, their identity and everything that they are, and all of the funds of knowledge that they bring to the table. I mean, we know the research says when we are culturally responsive to children, they learn better. They retain that information, they process that information, and then we can stretch them beyond their current context. I think it's really important that we consider students' strengths and stop this business of, oh, let's look at all of this assessment. These are all the kids in the red. That's what happens at a PLC meeting as opposed to I, I've been a part of a lot of MTSS meetings as a teacher, of course, and I, I've had principals who were like, you, you're so different in how you come to the table. So first of all, the report that I'm presenting to the group that's talking about this child has a picture of the child on it, so we're just not even focusing on the actual child. I'm like, this is a human being. This is what they look like. This is what they love. This is what they can do really, really well. Let's talk about all of these things. Let's have a holistic perspective of this child before we start discussing our perceived, what we perceive to be their deficits. So I've had kids who might be striving as readers, but they can do a lot of things better than I can. You know what I mean?
Jennifer Serravallo:
And many times we find the way in for the areas of support that they need through thinking, well, when are they most engaged? Well, what do they love most? Well, where do they really shine?
Aeriale Johnson:
We have to know the kids or we can't help them grow.
Jerry Maraia:
I've been thinking a lot about the importance of not losing sight of the research around motivation. And Dr. Milner talks a bit about this idea of motivation being deeply interconnected with meaning making. And so often I think when I look at some of the curriculum that's on shortlist for districts, I worry that motivation, that joy, that love is getting lost. And I think we need to, I believe that good structured literacy can include joy and motivation and agency and voice and choice. That it doesn't need to be this or this. It is this and, and we can't lose sight of that.
Aeriale Johnson:
And that makes me think about Dr. Milner and how he spoke about how we don't listen to one another. I think that that's critically important too. I can say this curriculum that our district has purchased, I actually am not opposed to the foundational skills work that's done in this. I mean, I think it's beautiful. I think it's better than what we had before. I think it's going to help teachers to understand how children acquire phonological awareness skills and phonics and all of those things that are critical to children learning how to read, and the comprehension and knowledge building parts of this curriculum are not excellent. And so we all have something right to bring to the table, and if we can allow ourselves to come out of our silos and actually engage in conversation with one another, then I think we can do what's right for kids. Bringing things from both sides of the table. I don't think we should be on sides, but that's just the way it is at the moment. And really truly listen to each other so that we could listen better to children in their communities so that we can instruct them better.
Jennifer Serravallo:
Absolutely, and it is, like Jerry said, like Dr. Milner mentioned, there is research behind this as well. So if we are really following the research and if we're trying to, the best we can, create a classroom, a literacy classroom that is informed by this research, we have to consider the motivation, the engagement, and whether kids see themselves in this curriculum, whether they can engage with it, whether they can learn from it. And quite honestly, whether it's harmful. Ariel, you shared some pages from the curriculum you're speaking of. We won't mention the name, but I would put that in the category of harmful. So things need to be edited and critically considered. And that is absolutely the work of leaders and of teachers. No matter what you have, no matter what you have, it's always a good idea to look at it critically and say, is this really serving the kids that I'm working with?
Aeriale Johnson:
Right. Absolutely. I mean, it would be better if we weren't put in this position in the first place in terms of legislation and then the policy that follows. But if we are to be put in this position, it's incumbent upon us as leaders in education to do what's right for children to find solutions for navigating this treacherous territory that we are in.
Jerry Maraia:
And I think another piece for me is this idea that Dr. Milner brings up around our kids are watching. Our kids are watching.
Aeriale Johnson:
Thank you. Yes.
Jerry Maraia:
I mean, it's so important to not lose sight of our kids watching. And I do believe that teachers and principals and superintendents and policy makers, they're watching too.
Aeriale Johnson:
Right? Exactly. And they can learn from us. I mean, we are the experts in terms of education, and you're so right. The children are watching us, and sometimes we don't even realize the impact that we're having on them.